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Queen Elizabeth Machin books

 
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pedro
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Joined: 05 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Queen Elizabeth Machin books Reply with quote

Hi all,
I have just joined this forum,
Can anyone tell me which is the best up to date book about GB Queen Elizabeth Machine Stamps which have Stanley Gibbons reference numbers?
Any help would be appreciated,
Regards,
Pedro
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cdj1122
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Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 953
Location: Houston, Texas pending eye surgery

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro that is a difficult question to answer.

The best and most comprehensive book about Machin Stamps is the "Complete Deegam Machin Handbook". It is quite extensive and before it was converted to a digital book available on disc it was two thick loose-leaf volumes consisting of about 1,400 pages.

However it does not attempt to convert the Gibbons numbers for two reasons, I think.
One the Gibbons numbering system is nonsensical and seems to defy logic.
Second the Deegam book goes into far more detail so that it lists varieties not even considered by Gibbons. There is also the problem of the errors collectors have found in the newest specialized Gippons volumes.

That said, the Stanley Gibbons Concise is probably the best for a beginner to, well, begin with.
Once a collector advances into the intermediate area, he, or she, should contact the author of the Complete Deegam Machin Handbook at:
D. G. A. Myall,
2 Elizabeth Avenue,
Bridport, Dorset,
DT6 5BA, UK,

http://www.deegam.com/handbook.htm
or send an e-mail to;
deegam@btopenworld.com

To convert these divergent numbering systems visit a dealer's website such as;
http://stamp-collector.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_13_339
But do not be surprised that the Gibbons numbers collate to several Deegam numbers.[/b]
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pedro
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Joined: 05 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for your speedy reply cdj,
I have been collecting GB stamps for almost 50 years and have a vast collection from QV to QE, I stopped adding to my collection about twenty years ago and all the machin stamps I acquired had Stanley Gibbons reference numbers when I purchased them, however I have just acquired a friends collection of GB Queen Elizabeth Machins about 400 different stamps and the majority of them have SB numbers and I have also purchased quite a lot of the recent ones from 2008-2012.
I did not know about the Deegam Machin book, I will have a good read about it and may by the disc,
Thank you once again for your help,
Pedro,
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cdj1122
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Luck and if anyone here can be of help just ask.
One thing you might want to check into.
One of the primary complaints many of us have with the SG numbers is that over the last 20 - 309 years they have had t slip some new stamp into line somewhere and that has often caused a stamp to have a different number today than it had years ago.
This can be very confusing at times.

Changed numbers simply do not happen in the Deegam System unless there is a typo that needs correction.

About six months ago I wrote a post that explained how Doug accomplished this miracle of numbering.

Rather than search for it I'll re-post it here again, with some correction that I noticed later om.
.
Doug Myall had a great advantage 40 years ago in that he was present at the beginning of the Machin Era, ( Which continues unabated even today with the introduction of standard colors for NVI stamps.) combined with a lot of experience dealing with the previous "Wilding" definitives.
As the Machin series developed and matured it must have been obvious to him that both Scott's and Stanley Gibbons were making a mish-mash of their numbering systems. As values were added and certain values were re-printed creating varieties of paper, color, gum, printers and sources the standard catalogs added numbers, altered numbers, changed numbers, modified some issues with letters that made figuring out what stamp went where in the pecking order interesting, and led to continual updatings. Most collectors were just as confused as the catalog editors.
So Doug created his own very logical system of numbering that allowed similar issues to be grouped together by value and color with the added advantage that once a stamp is issued a number, that should never change, and new variations could be added in place or inserted between previous similar issues without changing whole strings of previously determined numbers.
It work like this.
Imagine that a 21p stamp was issued by RM. It gets the standard Deegam number of DG 21.1.1. (Note: There is no 21p stamps so I chose that value for illustration purposes.)
Six months later two almost identical stamps are printed and manufactured by a different printer, one with one kind of gum and one with a different kind of gum. They are listed as DG 21.2.1 and DG 21.3.1 and so without changing the 22p and other higher value stamp's numbers and so on, we can easily see where these beauties fit in.
Then some alert collector spots one of the stamps that is identical to DG2.1.1 except for it having a single left band. After verifying its main charactoristics Doug can assign it the number DG 21.1.2 so that we now have;
DG21.1.1,<<<------<<< Still the same number
DG21.1.2, <<<------<<< The new variation fits in here
DG21.2.1,<<<------<<< Still the same number
and,
DG21.3.1<<<------<<< Still the same number
Notice that the first, second and third variation all have kept their original designation.
Imagine that several years pass by and other variations in printing method, phosphor bands, gum, paper type, and even a different color.
The new stamps are given appropriate numbers according to the heirarchy established by Doug when they started and completely explained in the Deegam Complete Machin Handbook so that the section covering the 21p stamps now looks like this;
.
DG21.1.1 <<<------<<< Still the same number
DG21.1.2
DG21.1.3
DG21.2.1 <<<------<<< Still the same number
DG21.2.2
DG21.3.1 <<<------<<< Still the same number
DG21.3.2
DG21.3.3
DG21.4.1 <<<------<<< the new color
.
Now in truth, there have been a few adjustments mostly to correct typos and some unavoidable corrections, (Three or four in 45 years, imagine that !) but very few and easy to accomodate without any major overhaul of the system. And definitely a correction of something in the 21p goup will not affect the higher listed numbers.
If then a new stamp is issued that has as its main charactoristics that it is a further variation of DG21.3 .1 it can be assigned DG21.3.4 or if it is only a very minor alteration of DG21.3.3 it can be given the number DG21.3.3a and any collector who has taken the time to follow the system knows just from looking at the number where those stamps ought to be placed..
Meanwhile, during the forty-five years since the first Machins were produced Gibbons has re-odered its numbers several times and creasted a kind of havoc among collectors that even to this day there are times where in certain cases, I am not sure which number is assigned to which stamp, unless I have bought the latest Gibbons guide and checked through the long list of corrections issued by them for typos or changes. And Scott, finally had to hire an American Machin expert, Richard Muller, to completly overhaul its standard numbering system and they created the prefix "MH" for all Machin stamps.
One major advantage is that also this allows for three lavls of collecting from the simplified to the more complex, one for each grade of collector, to tempt them from the starting level 1 to the specialised level 3 and even 3a. Accompanying all this there are, of course, the Deegam Profiles, one for every listed stamp at any level which in a shorthand notation allows the collector to identify each stamp that s/he mounts..
So, as Dave broadly hinted, if you can, get a copy of the Deegam Complete Machin Handbook in disc form and once you play with the lists you will not have to do any major renumbering again.

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" .... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Charlie Jensen
Lecanto, Florida
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pedro
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for the info cdj, I have sent for the CD.
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cdj1122
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Joined: 08 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro, there are two things I would suggest when the disc arrives and you open it up.

Read the section that is marked "Tutorial".
Also take the time to read the chapters of Volume One. It is a philatelic education in how stamps are printed and produced and explains the many clever ways Doug, the book's author, has worked out to help us decide which stamp is which.

The best thing that happened to me in that area was my becoming hospitalized for one week and asking my wife to bring several books that I could read. (This was when it was still two loose leaf books. one happened to be the binder that contained the chapters and I became absorbed in the information contained there.) I read almost all the chapters through at least twice that week and so many things became clear to me it was an amazing transformation. The chapters enables the collector to get the most benefit from the extensive data incorporated on the pages of the lists.
A great benefit in the digital version is the electronic interconnections buried within the links embedded all over the book so that when you are not sure what some datum means, just hovering over the matter with the mouse and clicking it will open a page that explains the datum.

Good Luck and happy collecting.
_________________
" .... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Charlie Jensen
Lecanto, Florida
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