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2004 Locomotives M/S Presentation Pack - A total fake!

 
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Gooner
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Joined: 25 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:09 pm    Post subject: 2004 Locomotives M/S Presentation Pack - A total fake! Reply with quote

I found Arthur Ryan selling these on eBay - strange as I was under the impression that he was a reputable dealer.



These have been known to be fake Presentation Packs since day 1. The Miniature sheet was never issued in a PP.

http://tinyurl.com/3r2amk2

Apparently he has "more than 10" of these selling at 32 per pack and two listings active (so I assume a minimum of 22) .. good scam if you can get away with it. He hadn't sold any at time of writing.

I can make one of these myself .... I take my Locomotives Presentation Packs remove the stamp set they are issued with and replace them with one of my Miniature Sheets.

Hey presto - suddenly they are "worth" nearly 3 times what they would cost to buy the Miniature sheet from the same seller.

Does anyone have a copy of Concise 2010 or even better 2011 to prove that they are not a genuinely listed item? There is certainly no listing in my 2009 version.

I have written to him telling him these are FAKE - but this is something he is fully aware of I am sure - he has been in the trade long enough. Let's see if anything happens.
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Mollydog
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:56 am    Post subject: Concise 2011 Reply with quote

Quite a while since you posted the question above but I have had a look in my Concise 2011 and can find no mention of a MS Pres Pack for this issue although the SG Cat value of the Pres Pack with stamps and the MS on its own is 35 (Mint or used).
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gbmachins
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found these packs on the web, selling at 24.00 http://www.packsandcards.com/products/showitem.asp?ID=2635&start=1
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Roy Simpson
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes thanks for prompting me Roy ... I have been meaning to update this thread for a while now.

Since I started out this particular post I have been in conversation with an eBay seller who has pointed out to me that these do in fact exist however SG don't list them as they are so easily faked.

He has also told me how to differentiate between the "real" version and the "fake".

I am told the "real" exist in small numbers because an employee at the Royal Mail got confused and started loading mini-sheets instead of the sets. I don't know how many were created before he told to stop and in theory these were supposed to be destroyed however a few went out to dealers and "early" subscribers... some of whom "allegedly" returned them and had them replaced with the correct pack containing the sheet versions.

I have been asked not to reveal the three ways of ensuring you have a "real" version otherwise more fakes may appear. As I told this person I wouldn't - I won't - however I have obtained a few copies which I will put up on the site at sometime and anyone who purchases one will of course have the right to know how to differentiate.
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going back to my first post and knowing what I know now - I may owe Arthur Ryan an apology (although he has never responded to my email) .... however I have no way of knowing whether or not the item he is selling is "real" or "fake" and although listing at least twice since I first mentioned it he does not seem to have sold any.

As he is selling at 8 more than Packs and Cards maybe that is not surprising.
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cdj1122
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that to some collectors these presentation packs are what used to be referred to in the old days as "The Cat's Meow", and that creates quite a market for them.
It just seems to me to be a contrived souvenir that only generates profits to Royal Mail.
I fear that in the future they will be tossed onto the market much as similarly touted US Plate Number Blocks of the 1950 -2000 period. After years of being popular and enthustiasticly collected, some dealers have been using them for postage on their outgoing mail.
Translation: Fifty years of US Plate Number blocks are barely worth the face value.
Here among friends, I wonder if others share my supposition ?
.
I have always been a supporter of the idea that those of us who collect things should collect whatever it is that appeals to their inner pleasure so I'll never pass judgement on the correctness of what people collect, ....... barbed wires strands, banana stickers, frozen cow paddies or mint plate number blocks.
But looking at the money being charged by Royal Mail and the premium added to cover a dealers operating expenses I just feel that accumulating Presentation Packs is a voyage on the HMS Dissappointment.
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Alex
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie,

You are absolutely right. The every growing number of issues to commemorate this that and the other, usually of at least six values, combined with every possible combination know to RM, makes collecting these today, truely the hobby of Kings (or lottery winners). At least the machin collector only needs to look at the machin pane in the ever present prestige booklet for those special and unique stamps, as well as the latest security varieties.

90% of these special stamps rarely see true postal use and are usually withdrawn after 12 months (wonder what they do with the millions of unsold stamps that remain?).

Alex.

PS - what's a 'frozen cow paddie' ?
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdj1122 wrote:

But looking at the money being charged by Royal Mail and the premium added to cover a dealers operating expenses I just feel that accumulating Presentation Packs is a voyage on the HMS Dissappointment.

I have to agree with you Charlie and hence the reason I have had them deleted from my standing order as of the end of 2009 and I probably left it on there too long even then.

However, as I no longer collect these myself I can and do still offer them on my site up to that date and they do generally sell quite well although I have noticed that lately it has been thematic collectors rather than general GB collectors that have been purchasing them.

Indeed there are some especially around early 2000's that seem to have a cult following that has pushed the retail to ridiculous prices compared to their relative issued amounts. London Bridges is probably the most famous of these. I have no explanation for why this is.

At the other end of the scale Presentation Packs from the 80's and early 90's have never really increased their collectable value and generally sell for not much more than their original cost. The exception being the Xmas issues for those years - again I can offer no explanation for this.
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jrg_from_oz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess it comes down to the question of what do we want to collect - the stamps or the packaging?

To each his own.

The simple solution is to collect used - then the packaging is irrelevant!

John
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrg_from_oz wrote:
I guess it comes down to the question of what do we want to collect - the stamps or the packaging?

To each his own.

The simple solution is to collect used - then the packaging is irrelevant!John

Correct John - I asked myself the same question, which is when I stopped buying Commemorative Presentation Packs although having said that I chickened out when it came to the Definitive packs so I do still collect them.

I tell myself there is a valid reason - you do (sometimes) receive different issues from the standard - especially in the later versions of these - since Self-adhesives have been introduced. This is particularly relevant in the packs since 2005 where the Presentation Pack contains coil versions or unique die-cuts and is the only way to purchase these is to buy the PP.
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gbmachins
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:13 pm    Post subject: Price reduction Reply with quote

gbmachins wrote:
I have found these packs on the web, selling at 24.00 http://www.packsandcards.com/products/showitem.asp?ID=2635&start=1


I was going through a few old posts, and clicked on this link to see if these were still vailable. the answer is yes but now this very rare pack sells at 14.95.

What a difference, must be tons of fakes out there, I have one that I made myself just to save me buying one Smile
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a couple of these from a seller on eBay at the back end of 2011 Roy, not for a particularly high price as I remember. He identified a way to guarantee they were genuine. Trouble is I can't remember what he said now. it is something to do with the supplied holder I think.

Apparently Royal Mail did make a few mistakes at the beginning of the run and insert Miniature Sheets instead of the sets, or so I am told.

I bought the packs as stock to sell on to customers who particularly wanted them, but I couldn't really be bothered to go through the "is it genuine or not" cycle with a buyer so that are still packed away in a drawer somewhere, No doubt I will come across them one day..... or my heirs will. Rolling Eyes
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gbmachins
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pic you show at the beginning of this thread is clearly a fake. I have looked at the genuine article??? and it shows that the miniature sheet is encased in a single housing (not one of two strips which was used for the set)

But saying this what stops someone replacing the two strip insert for a single housing used for previous miniature sheets.?

The best advice is leave these alone.

Roy
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes your conclusion re the "holder" is correct, that one of the ways.. it is a specific size holder but even then it is easily faked as far as I am concerned.

I agree Roy (about leaving them alone), and for the sake of few pounds I don't need the hassle so they will stay in the back of my drawer for now.
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