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1971-76 The ½v Machin Booklet Pane

 
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:18 pm    Post subject: 1971-76 The ½v Machin Booklet Pane Reply with quote

Whilst I was loading up my DNx booklets to site...... I spotted an advert on eBay (350899619183) for a booklet pane (see image below) at a fixed price of £149 and a description of:
2p +1/2p FCP/PVA MACHIN UNMOUNTED MINT BOOKLET PANE BROAD BANDS I(1/2v) UNPRICED




I am not disputing that it is broad band and I want to make it clear that I am not impugning the seller either as I have bought from him previously and all have been exactly as described.

HOWEVER

There is something about this picture that makes me doubt it is a TRUE ½v Pane. The cut seems almost too deep and straight (in fact it actually cuts part of the 2p stamp).

I find myself saying to myself (I do that a lot as my wife has no interest in stamps) that I could easily forge this cut just with a pair of scissors ... I have a couple of the broad band panes from this series but they have the normal Pane perforation. What is to stop me just cutting an edge off.

I wouldn't do it of course but there are sellers out there that are less (what's the word????) ... and I wondered if there were any experts in this field who could let me know if they think this is in fact a genuine ½v ... and you can tell by..... etc etc ..

I never have problem being proved wrong and it is only a gut feeling as I have no others to compare it with.

So .. what do you think?
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Dave
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Last edited by Gooner on Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:48 pm; edited 3 times in total
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cdj1122
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am looking at the depth of the right and left side perfs.
Are then not deeper at the top on both sides ?
And more shallow near the bottom ?

That just seems to be questionable, or at least unusual.
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had a look around and there is a similar looking item (but not broad band) on Delcampe as well (317814833) which is also very straight cut and into the 2p stamp (see image below) so maybe my gut feel about the other one is wrong.



This is not a variety I have paid much attention to in the past as for most of my issues the half-v just doesn't happen.

But when I have seen it in the past it tended to look more like this ..



Now this looks reasonable.... a rough cut, nowhere near the stamps etc ....

HOWEVER

My primary question remains:

What is stopping me from taking a pair of scissors to a "standard" perforated pane valued at £5 and turning it into a £50 half-v perforated pane.... (leaving integrity aside of course)?
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cdj1122
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthritis ?
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crazyh1
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

coincidentally I have raised the exact same question (though not about an eBay item) in the last few days. I picked up a collection of stitched panes recently and its an area which I have really gotten involved in previously. The collection has 1/2v cuts which go deep and others which don't. My initial thought was 'fake', but then on reading about the production process and the fact that this is just a guillotine action to aid in separation of the two halves of the print run, it made me think it would be reasonable to see different depths of cut.

I haven't reached a final conclusion and I may just email Ian Harvey as he is a booklet specialist of repute, and see what he says.

Scott
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cdj1122
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Booklets are not my thing, but I noticed that there was/is a large collection of unexploded UK booklets being offered at Weeda Auctions in Vancouver, BC.
Charlie
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crazyh1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have messaged Ian H. I'll update when I hear back.
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Scott
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tangles2010
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forget the details, but isn't the way to check if it is a 'real' I1/2v pane to check the perforations on the left? The way that these were produced was to make the V-cut and then tear along the perforations. So the perforations should be torn at the left and not cut. A fake would normally have cut perfs because the guillotine was used.

I've seen eBay sellers show scans of the perfs on these panes to show that they are torn and not cut. So perhaps you just need to ask the seller?

Cheers

Daniel
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a great explanation Daniel thank you.
Now I understand.
I think from the image shown in post one (and indeed the Delcampe one shown in a later post) that the left perforations are definitely TORN and not CUT and therefore unlikely to be a forgery.
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crazyh1
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Daniel.

And to close the loop entirely, Ian Harvey has come back to me this afternoon as follows;

"Scott, Daniel and Dave have the answer.

Starting in 1961, the Wilding panes of four printed sideways for 2/= booklets were on the reel but guillotined into double sideways sheets for sheet perforation.
This was done from “bottom” up like old fashioned counter sheets so the double sheet had imperf selvedge at the bottom and perforated through at the top.
At each side, the sheets were guillotined to result in the I perf panes and guillotined at the top to cut off the perf selvedge.
The bottom imperf selvedge of these double sheets sideways printed was torn off – in other words, with sideways printed panes, one of the sides had torn perfs.
Remembering that the bottom (and top) sheet selvedge was only half of a stamp width but needed to be torn off 20 stamp lengths, how could this be facilitated.
Answer – the operator used a pair of scissors to snip across the imperf side selvedges at both ends to help the start of the tear and to stop tearing the stamp or selvedge at the other end.
Why have a torn sheet bottom at all?
This helped with “knocking up” – when you collate the cover, interleaves and panes, you want the panes particularly to be centred into the booklet so that when the mass, in this case, of 60 booklets is guillotined after stitching, the panes should have as good perfs as possible.
So, just like when you take a sheaf of papers before stapling, you turn them on their end and knock that against your desk so they are all neat and squared.
In the case of booklet preparation, that means that you will be knocking the bottom edge which, having torn perfs has full perfs.
So, if it is done properly, all of the 60 panes should have full perfs.
In the examples that you are looking at, the decimal is the same as above but single sheet sideways printing and the Wilding is a holiday booklet that was single sheet upright printing and the same method was use on the left margin of the sheet as it was perforated from the left.
So, to fake the scissor cut is easy but to fake torn perfs is more difficult.
I am not aware that I have seen any fake torn perfs.
However, I would be suspicious if all the “torn” perfs were very short!
Also, if someone had a pane with very full perfs and tried to pull all the perfs along that side, the pane is likely to have short or no perfs on the other side, so even as a ½v pane of little value anyway.
Finally, you can place the suspicious pane on a standard size booklet cover to see if any significant difference in size.
But, of course, you have to know the method of make-up to decide whether a significant difference may be suspicious or natural.
Hope this helps.

Regards, Ian"

Scott
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Gooner
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Scott that is a comprehensive reply which I think I will pin to the top of the Machin threads as it is an excellent informational set of comments that future machinistas may find useful.

Appreciate it if you could thank Ian on our behalf.
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Dave
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crazyh1
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem.

I thanked Ian and said I would post to the forum for any future readers.

Scott
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cdj1122
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The explanation is comprehensive and, although I did read it twice, since I usually do not collect booklet panes in depth, I think I understand, including why the cut the notch in the first place. I've seen them but never looked into the why of that, but now it does make sense.
It also demonstrates that regardless of how much we learn about the Machins there is always something more to discover.
So Thanks Scott and thanks to the ever helpful Ian as well.
Charlie
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phos45
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the MBPC catalog uses a scale to describe depth of cut or perf-cut. 0-100%

the SGS appendix on perforation also shows types ...

very specialised topic
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